Read the VP Debate Transcript

The second debate of the election season was lackluster at best, as the one-and-only vice presidential debate hardly offered its fair share of fireworks and tense moments. Held at the Longwood University campus in Farmville, Virginia, the debate between Mike Pence and Tim Kaine wasn't exactly regarded as a highly-anticipated event, though it did give viewers a chance to become better acquainted with the presidential running mates in this high stakes election. And if you'd rather read through the candidate's responses than re-watch them, you can read the vice presidential debate transcript.

Both Pence and Kaine did not shy from "preparing" for Tuesday's debate. (You might recall how Trump attempted to use Clinton's supposed preparedness for the debate as a weakness.) Sen. Kaine had reportedly been practicing with Robert Barnett, a high-profile Washington lawyer, who was standing in for Pence, and Gov. Pence was reportedly practicing with Gov. Scott Walker.

Kaine, who is a senator from the state of Virginia, has been bolstering Clinton's lead in key battleground swing states, such as Virginia, the state where tonight's debate was held. Clinton is averaging about 9 percentage points higher than Trump in that state, according to Real Clear Politics. Both Trump and Pence have also made regular visits to the Virginia.

The debate, which was moderated by Elaine Quijano of CBS News, was streamed on several websites and aired on most major TV networks, but if you missed out, you can read the whole thing here, courtesy of Vox.

Elaine Quijano: Good evening from Longwood University in Farmville, Virginia. Welcome to the first and only vice presidential debate of 2016. I am Elaine Quijano, correspondent for CBS news. It is an honor to moderate this debate between Sen. Tim Kaine and Mike Pence.

They are proud fathers, sons serving in the US Marines. There will be nine different segments covering domestic and foreign policy issues, and each segment will begin with a question both candidates will each have two minutes to answer. By coin toss, it has been determined that Sen. Kaine will be first to answer the opening question. We have an enthusiastic audience tonight. They have agreed to only express that enthusiasm once at the end of the debate, and right now, as we welcome Gov. Mike Pence and Sen. Tim Kaine.

Thank you. It is an honor.

Gentlemen. Welcome. It truly is a privilege to be with both of you tonight. I would like to start with the topic of presidential leadership. Twenty-eight years ago tomorrow night, Lloyd Bentsen said the vice presidential debate was not about the qualifications for vice presidency, but how, if tragedy should occur, the vice president has to step in without margin, without time for preparation, to take over the responsibility for the biggest job in the world.

What are your qualities, your skills, and your temperament that equip you to step into that role at a moment’s notice?

Sen. Tim Kaine: It is so great to be back at Longwood in Farmville, Virginia.

This is a very special place. Sixty-five years ago, a young, courageous woman, Barbara Johns, led a walkout over high school. She made history by protesting school segregation — she believes our nation is stronger together, and walkouts led to the Brown v. Board of Education decision that moved us toward equality. I am so proud to be running with another strong history making woman, Hillary Clinton, to be president of the United States. Her vision of stronger together, building an economy that works for all, not just those at the top, being safe in the world, not only with a strong military, but also strong alliances, to battle terrorism and climate change, and also to build a community of respect, like Barbara Johns tried to do 65 years ago.

That is why I am so proud to be a running mate. Hillary told me why she asked me to be a running mate. It will be whether we can make somebody's life better; whether we can make a classroom a better learning environment for school kids and teachers, whether we can make it safer. It is going to be about results.

She said to me: You have been a missionary and civil rights lawyer. You have been a lieutenant governor and governor, and now a US senator. I think you will help me figure out how to govern this nation so we always keep in mind that the success of the administration is the difference we make in people's lives. That is what I bring to the ticket. I have served at all levels of government. My primary role is to be Hillary Clinton's right-hand person and strong support. She put together the most historic administration possible. I relish that role. I am so proud of her.

We trust Hillary Clinton, my wife and I, with the most important thing in our life. We have a son deployed in the Marines. We trust Hillary Clinton as president and commander in chief. The thought of Donald Trump as commander in chief scares us to death.

Gov. Mike Pence: Thank you to Longwood University for the wonderful hospitality, the Commission on Presidential Debates. It is deeply humbling for me to be here, to be surrounded by my family. Sen. Kaine, it is a honor to be your with you as well.

I want to say thank you to everyone looking in on the night, who understands what an enormously important time this is in the life of our nation.

For the last 7.5 years, we have seen America's place in the world weakened, the economy stifled by taxation, a war on coal — and the American people know that we need to make a change. I want to thank all of you for being with us tonight. I want to thank Donald Trump for making that call and inviting us to be a part of this ticket. I am a small-town boy from a place not too different from Farmville. I grew up with a cornfield in my backyard. My grandfather immigrated to this country — when he was about my son's age. They raised a family. I dream someday of representing my hometown and Washington, DC, but honestly, Elaine, I never imagined I would have the opportunity to be governor of the state I love, let alone be sitting at a table like this in this kind of position.

To answer your question, I would hope that if the responsibility ever fell to me in this role, that I would meet the responsibility, should I be elected vice president of the United States, to bring up a lifetime of experience, a lifetime of growing up in a small town, where I served in the Congress of the United States in the great state of Indiana. I would hope, and pray, to be able to meet that moment with my lifetime of experience.

Elaine: You talked about Hillary Clinton's character, yet 60 percent of voters do not think she is trustworthy. Why do so many people distrust her? Is it because they have questions about her emails and the Clinton foundation?

Sen. Kaine: Let me tell you why I trust Hillary Clinton. Here's what people should look for in a servant. Do they have a passion in their life before they were in public life? Hillary Clinton has that passion from a time as a kid in a Methodist youth group in the suburbs of Chicago, she has been focused on serving others with a special focus on empowering families and kids. As a civil rights lawyer in the South with the Children's Defense Fund, first lady of Arkansas, and this country's secretary of state, it has always been about putting others first. That is a sharp contrast with Donald Trump.

Donald Trump always puts himself first. He built a business career, in the words of his own campaign staffers, "Off the backs of the little guy." He started his campaign was a speech where he called Mexicans rapists and criminals, and he has pursued the discredited and outrageous lie that President Obama was not born in the United States. It is painful to suggest we go back to think about these days where an African American could not be a citizen of the United States. I cannot imagine how Gov. Pence can defend Donald Trump.

Elaine: You said Donald Trump is "Thoughtful, compassionate, and steady." Voters think he is a risky choice, and 65 percent think he does not have the right temperament to be president. Why do so many Americans think Trump is simply too erratic?

Gov. Pence: First and foremost, Senator, and Hillary Clinton would know a lot about an insult-driven campaign. That's you and Hillary Clinton, would know a lot about an insult-driven campaign. We see entire portions of the world, particularly the Middle East, spinning out of control in a situation we are watching hour-by-hour in Syria today, a result of the failed for policy that Hillary Clinton helped lead in this administration and create. The newly emboldened progression of Russia, in Ukraine or —

Elaine: We will get to you in just a moment. I want to get back —

Gov. Pence: Elaine, thank you.

Sen. Kaine: He praised Vladimir Putin as a great leader.

Elaine: The question we are at —

Gov. Pence: At a time of great challenge, in the life of this nation, where we have weakened America's place in the world, the campaign of Hillary Clinton and Tim Kaine has been an avalanche of insults. To get your question about trustworthiness, Donald Trump has built a business through hard times and good times.

He has brought an extraordinary business acumen, employed tens of thousands of people in this country,

Sen. Kaine: And cost $1 billion per year.

Gov. Pence: There is a reason why people question the trustworthiness of Hillary Clinton, and that is because they are paying attention. The reality is, she was secretary of state. She had the Clinton Foundation accepting contributions from foreign governments.

Sen. Kaine: Let me talk about this —

Gov. Pence: Senator — this is my time.

Sen. Kaine: Isn't this a discussion?

Gov. Pence: The Clinton Foundation accepted foreign contributions from foreign governments and foreign governors while she was secretary of state. She had a private server —

Sen. Kaine: I get to weigh in. Gov. Pence does not think it has gone so well, he's going to say it is everybody's —

Gov. Pence: Do you?

Sen. Kaine: When she was secretary of state, Osama bin Laden was alive. Russia was expanding its stockpile. Under Secretary Clinton's leadership, she was partnered with the safety team that went after and revived the — against Bin Laden. She worked a deal with the Russians to reduce their chemical weapons stockpile. She worked a tough negotiation with nations around the world to eliminate the Iranian nuclear weapons program without firing a shot.

Without firing a shot, and instead of 175,000 American troops deployed overseas, we now have 15,000.

Gov. Pence: Iraq has been overrun by ISIS. They failed to negotiate. Hillary Clinton has failed to renegotiate the status of forces agreement.

Sen. Kaine: That is incorrect.

Elaine: I would like to move on.

Sen. Kaine: I would like to correct — President Bush said we would leave Iraq at the end of 2011. Iraq did not want our troops to stay. They would not give us the protective of our troops. If a nation where our troops are serving does not want us to stay, we are not going to stay —

Gov. Pence: It was a failure of the secretary of state —

Elaine: There are a lot of people wondering about the economy. According to the nonpartisan committee, neither of your economic plans would reduce the growing $19 trillion gross national debt. In fact, your plans would add even more to it. Both of you were governors who balanced the state budget. Are you concerned that adding more to the debt could be disastrous for the country? Gov. Pence.

Gov. Pence: The fact that under this past administration of which Hillary Clinton was a part, we have almost doubled the national debt. It is atrocious. I am very proud of the fact that I come from a state that works. The state of Indiana has a balanced budget. We cut taxes. I finished my turn with $2 billion in the bank. That is a little bit different from when Sen. Kaine was governor here in Virginia. He actually tried to raise taxes by about $4 billion. He left the state about $2 billion in the hole.

The state of Indiana — we cut unemployment in half. Unemployment doubled when he was governor. He is a very fitting running mate for Hillary Clinton because in the wake of the season when American families are struggling in this economy under the weight of higher taxes and Obamacare and the war on coal and the settling avalanche of regulations coming out of this administration, Hillary Clinton and Tim Kaine want more of the same. It really is remarkable.

They actually are advocating $1 trillion in tax increases. You tried to raise taxes in Virginia and were unsuccessful. With trillion dollars in tax increases, more regulation, more of the same — $1 trillion in tax increases, more regulation, more of the same war on coal. Hillary Clinton and Tim Kaine want to build on Obamacare and make it a single-payer program. Hillary Clinton thinks Obamacare is a good start.

We have a plan to get health care working again by lowering taxes across the board for working families, small businesses, and family farms, ending the war on coal that is hurting jobs, repealing Obamacare, lock stock, and repealing all of the executive orders Obama has signed that are stifling economic growth in this country.

On top of that, the trade deals that have put the American worker first, you have got a prescription for real growth. When you get the economy growing, that is when you can deal with the national debt. When we get back to 3.5 percent to 4 percent growth, then we are going to have the resources to meet our nation's needs at home, abroad, and the ability to bring down the national debt.

Sen. Kaine: On the economy, there is a choice for the American electorate. Do you want a "You are hired" president in Hillary Clinton or a "You are fired" president in Donald Trump? We have five components. First, we invest in manufacturing, infrastructure, and research into clean energy jobs for tomorrow.

Second, we invest in our workforce from pre-K education to great teachers, to debt free college, and tuition-free college for families that make less than $125,000 per year.

We [raise] the minimum wage so you cannot work full time and make under the poverty level. We promote small business growth to make it easier to start and grow small businesses. We each grew up in small business families. My dad ran a welding shop. We have a tax plan that targets tax relief to middle-class individuals and small businesses and asked those at the top who benefits as we come out of recession to pay more.

The Trump plan is a different plan. It is a "You are fired” plan. Both Donald Trump and Mike Pence think we ought to eliminate the federal minimum wage. Mike Pence, when he was in Congress, voted against raising the minimum wage above $5 — $5.15. He has been a one-man bulwark. Second, massive tax breaks for the very top, trillions of dollars of tax breaks for people like Donald Trump.

That is exactly what we did 10 years ago and it put our economy in the deepest recession since the 1930s. The Trump plan would cost $3.5 million jobs. His tax plan helped him. If he ever met his promise and gave his tax returns to the American public like he said he would, we would see just how much his economic plan is really a Trump-first plan.

Elaine: The New York Times released part of Mr. Trump’s 1995 tax returns and reported he could have avoided paying several income taxes for years. Mr. Trump said he brilliantly used the laws to pay as little taxes as legally possible. Does that seem fair to you?

Gov. Pence: I appreciate the "You are hired," "You are fired" thing.

What you all just heard out there is more taxes, $2 trillion in more spending, more deficits, more debt, more government, and if you think that is all worth it, look at the other side of the table. The policies of this administration, which Hillary Clinton and Sen. Kaine want to continue, have run this economy into a ditch.

Sen. Kaine: Fifty million new jobs.

Gov. Pence: There are more people living in poverty today than the day that Barack Obama had Hillary Clinton at his side —

Sen. Kaine: It would improve dramatically between —

Gov. Pence: You can roll out the numbers and the sunny side. People in Scranton, no different. People in Indiana, no different. In this economy, and people are struggling. The answer is not more taxes —

Sen. Kaine: It is not to giveaway tax relief to folks at the top. I want to hear whether he will defend his running mate not releasing taxes.

Elaine: The question was about whether it seems fair to you that Mr. Trump said he brilliantly used the laws to pay as little taxes as legally possible.

Gov. Pence: This is the difference between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton and Sen. Kaine. They are career public servants. Donald Trump is a businessman, not a career politician. He built a business. Those tax returns that came out publicly this week showed that he faced pretty tough times 20 years ago.

Like virtually every other business, including the New York Times, he used operating laws, a tax code that actually is designed to encourage opportune ownership — encourage entrepreneurship.

Sen. Kaine: But why won't he released his tax returns?

Gov. Pence: He went through a very difficult time, but he used the tax code just the way it was supposed to be used.

Sen. Kaine: How do you know that?

Gov. Pence: He has created a business with billions of dollars.

Sen. Kaine: How do you know that?

Gov. Pence: This whole riff about not paying taxes, Donald has created tens of thousands of jobs, and has paid payroll —

Sen. Kaine: Let me talk about that.

Elaine: Senator, I am going to give you 30 seconds to respond. Governor.

Sen. Kaine: Donald Trump started this campaign in 2016. He said, "If I am running for president, I will absolutely release my tax returns."

Gov. Pence: He said he will do it.

Sen. Kaine: He said "That makes me smart." It is smart not to be for our military, for veterans, for teachers. I guess all of us who do pay for those things, I guess we’re stupid.

Gov. Pence: Senator, do you —

Sen. Kaine: Gov. Pence had to give Donald Trump his tax returns to show he was qualified to be vice president. Donald Trump must if the American public his tax return to show he is qualified to be president. He is breaking his promise.

Gov. Pence: I have to respond to this. Donald Trump has filed over 100 pages of financial disclosure, which is what the law requires. You can read you've that — you can review that.

Elaine: Gentlemen, I need to ask about Social Security.

Sen. Kaine: Richard Nixon released his tax returns under audit.

Sen. Kaine: Governor Pence had to give Donald Trump his tax returns to show he was qualified to be vice president. Donald Trump must if the American public his tax return to show he is qualified to be president. He is breaking his promise.

Gov. Pence: I have to respond to this. Donald Trump has filed over 100 pages of financial disclosure, which is what the law requires. You can read you've that — you can review that.

Elaine: Gentlemen, I need to ask about Social Security.

Sen. Kaine: Richard Nixon released his tax returns under audit.

Elaine: People at home cannot understand either one of you when you speak over each other. I will please ask you to wait until the other is finished. On the issue of social security: In 18 years, when the social security trust funds run out of money, you will be 76. The community for responsible federal budget estimates your benefits could be cut by as much as $3500 per year. What would your -- $7,500 per year.

Sen. Kaine: We are going to protect social security, one of the greatest programs the American government has ever done. It happened at a time when you worked your whole life raising your kids, working, being a little league coach, and retire into poverty. We have to keep it solvent and will keep it solvent. We will look for strategies like adjusting the payroll tax cap upward in order to do that. Here is what Hillary and I will not do, and I want to make this plain. We will never ever engage in a risky scheme to privatize social security. Donald Trump wrote a book and said social security is a Ponzi scheme and privatization would begin for all of us.

When Congressman Pence was in Congress, he was the chief cheerleader for the privatization of social security, even after President Bush stopped pushing for it, congressman pence kept pushing for it. We are going to stand up against that push to privatize social security and look for ways to keep it solvent going forward, focusing on the payroll tax.

Gov. Pence: Thank you Elaine, there they go again. [Laughter] We are going to meet obligations to our seniors. We said we are going to meet the obligations to medicare. This is what this campaign is really about, senator. This is the scare tactic that they roll out —

Sen. Kaine: You have a voting record, governor.

Gov. Pence: Look, there is a question that you asked —

Sen. Kaine: You want defender on voting record.

Gov. Pence: You are running with — defend your own voting record.

Gov. Pence: You are running with Hillary Clinton. You say you are going to keep the promises of social security. Donald Trump and I are going to cut taxes.

Sen. Kaine: You are going to raise taxes on the middle class.

Gov. Pence: We will meet the obligations of social security and medicare. If we stay on the path that you have is on, we are going to be in a mountain range of that, of that — of debt.

Elaine: All right, let me move on. The issue of law enforcement and race relations. Law enforcement and race relations. After the Dallas police shooting, police chief David Brown said "We are asking cops to do too much in this country. Every societal failure, we put it off on the cops. Not enough mental health funding, drug addiction funding, and schools fail.” Do we ask too much of police officers in this country? How would you specifically address the chief's concerns.

Sen. Kaine: That is a very fair comment. We put all that on police's shoulders. I was a city councilman and mayor in Richmond. When I came in, we had one of the highest severance rates in the states. We fought very hard with our police department and reduce our homicide rate nearly in half. When I was governor of Virginia, we worked hard. We had — governor of Virginia, we worked very hard. We worked together.

Here is what I learned as a mayor and governor. The way you make immunities favor and the way you make police saver is through community policing. You build the bonds between amenity and the police force, bonds of understanding, that's between the community and the police force bonds of understanding. When that gap narrows, it is safer for communities, and for the police. That model works across our country. There are other models that do not work, and overly aggressive more militarized model. Donald Trump recently said we need to do more stop and frisk around the country. That would be a big mistake because it polarizes the relationship between the police and the community.

Here is what we will do, focus on community policing. We'll focus on a comprehensive mental health reform package that Hillary Clinton worked on with law enforcement professionals, and fight the scourge of gun violence in the United States. I am a gun owner. I am a strong second amendment supporter. When I was Governor of Virginia, there was a horrible shooting at Virginia Tech, and we learned through that painful situation that gaps in the background record check system should have been closed and could have prevented that crime. We are going to work to do things I close background record checks.

If we do, we will not have the tragedy we did. One of those killed it at Virginia Tech was a 70-plus-year-old Romanian Holocaust survivor who had survived the Holocaust, survived the Soviet Union takeover of his country, but then, he was a visiting professor at Virginia Tech, and could not survive the scourge of gun violence. We can support the second amendment and do things like that ground check to make us safer and police safer, too.

Gov. Pence: My uncle was a cop, career cop. On the beach in downtown Chicago. He was my hero when I grew up. My three brothers and I would marvel at my uncle when he would come out in his uniform, sidearm at his side. Police officers are the best of us, and men and women, white, African-American, Asian, Latino, hispanic, they put their lives on the line every single day. Let me say, at the risk of agreeing with you, community policing is a great idea. It has worked in the Hoosier state. We fully support that.

Donald Trump and I want to make sure law enforcement has the resources and tools to be able to really restore law and order, and for the cities and communities in this nation. It is probably why the 330,000 members of the police endorse Donald Trump as the next President of the United States of America because they see his commitment to him, to law — to them, to law and order.

They hear the bad mouthing that comes from people that seize upon tragedy as a reason to use a broad brush to accuse law enforcement of implicit bias or institutional racism. That really has got to stop. When an African-American police officer in Charlotte, and all-star football player who went to Liberty University, followed his dad into law enforcement, joined the force in Charlotte in 2014, was involved in a police action shooting that claimed the life of Keith Lamont Scott, it was a tragedy. We mourn with those who mourn, we grieve with those who grieve, and we are saddened at the loss of life.

Hillary Clinton actually referred to that moment as an example of implicit bias in the police force, where she was asked a week ago, whether there was implicit bias in law enforcement, should correctly answer was that there is implicit bias and everyone in the United States I just think what we ought to do is stop seizing on these moments of tragedy. We assure the public we have a full and complete and transparent investigation whenever there is a loss of life because of police action, but Senator, please, enough of this seeking every opportunity to demean law enforcement probably by making accusation of implicit bias every time tragedy occurs.

Sen. Kaine: People should not be afraid to bring up issues of bias in law enforcement.

Gov. Pence: I am not afraid to bring that up.

Sen. Kaine: If you are afraid to have the discussion, you will never solve it. This is a heartbreaking example. Philando Castile, who was killed in St. Paul, who was a worker, a valued worker in a local school, he was killed for no other reason, in an incident that will be discussed and investigated. When folks went and explored this situation, what they found was that Philando Castile, they called him Mr. Rogers with dreadlocks. Kids love him. He had been stopped by police 40 or 50 times before that fatal incident.

If you look at unstinting in this — at sentencing in this country, African Americans get sentenced for crimes that very different rates.

I just want to say, those who say we should not be able to bring up and talk about bias in the system will never solve the problem.

Gov. Pence: When African-American police officers involved in a police action shooting involving an African-American, why would Hillary Clinton accuse that African-American —

Sen. Kaine: I cannot believe you're defending the position there is no bias

Elaine: I have a question on that point. Your fellow Republican governor, Senator Tim Scott, who is African-American, recently spoke on the senate floor. He said he was stopped seven times by law enforcement in one year. He said, "I have felt the anger, frustration, sadness, and the humiliation that comes with feeling like you are being targeted for nothing more than being just yourself." What would you say to senator Scott about his experience.

Gov. Pence: I have the deepest respect for Senator Scott. He is a friend. I would say that we need to adopt criminal justice reform nationally. I had signed criminal justice reform in the state of Indiana senate, and very proud about it. I worked in congress on the second chance act. We have got to do a better job recognizing and correcting the errors in the system that do reflect institutional bias in criminal justice.

But what Donald Trump and I are saying is "Let us not have the reflex of assuming the worst of men and women in law enforcement." We believe that law enforcement is not —

Elaine: What would you say —

Gov. Pence: Law enforcement in this country is a force for good. They are people who put their lives on the line everything will day. I would suggest to you, what we need to do is assert a stronger leadership with the national level to use the -- to support law enforcement. You heard senator kaine want to stop stop and frisk.

Sen. Kaine: Let me — if I could just — I have heard senator Scott make that eloquent plea. There is a fundamental respect issue here. I want to talk about the tone. Donald Trump has called Mexicans rate this and promote — rapists and criminals. He has called women dogs, pigs, disgusting.

He said the judge was unqualified for a Federal lawsuit because his parents were Mexican. He went after John McCain, a POW, and said he was not a hero because he had been captured. If you want to have a society where people are respected and respect laws, you cannot have someone at the top who demeans every groupie talks about. I cannot believe that governor pence would defend the insult driven campaign that Donald Trump has run.

Elaine: Immigration. Your running mate have both said that undocumented immigrants who have committed violent crimes should be deported. What would you tell the millions of undocumented immigrants who have not committed violent crimes. Governor Pence.

Gov. Pence: Donald Trump has made a plan to end illegal immigration once and for all in this country. We have been talking it to death for 20 years. Hillary Clinton wants to continue the policy of open borders, amnesty, catch and release, sanctuary cities, all of the things driving wages down in this country, senator, and also too often, with criminal aliens in the country, it is bringing heartbreak.

Donald Trump has a plan that he laid out in Arizona that will deal systematically with illegal immigration, and it is probably why for the first time in history in immigration and customs enforcement, their union endorsed Donald Trump as the next President of the United States because they know they need help to enforce the laws of this country. All Trump has — Donald Trump had laid out a plan. As we have a congress all that, which will strengthen our economy, strengthen the rule of law in our economy and make our country safer, then, we will deal with those that remain. I have to tell you. I was listening to the avalanche of insult coming out of Senator Kaine a minute ago. He says —

Sen. Kaine: I apologize. It is your two minutes.

Gov. Pence: He said it is an insult-driven campaign. Did you all just hear that ours is an insult driven campaign? Hillary Clinton said that half of our supporters were a “basket of deplorables.” She said they were irredeemable, not American.

It is extraordinary. She nailed one after another, millions of Americans, who believe we can end illegal immigration once and for all. That is small potatoes compared to Hillary Clinton. She called half of Donald Trump supporters a basket of deplorables.

Sen. Kaine: She said, I should not have said that.

Elaine: This is Senator Kaine's two minutes.

Sen. Kaine: Now, we are even. Did Donald Trump apologize to senator John McCain for calling him — did Donald Trump apologize for taking after somebody in a Twitter war and making fun of her weight? Did he apologize for saying that president Obama was not a citizen of the United States. You will look in vain for Donald Trump apologizing. Donald Trump believes in deportation nation. You have got to pick your choice. Hillary and I want a bipartisan reform that will keep families together, second, that will help focus enforcement efforts on those were violent, third, that will do more border control, and third, write a path to citizenship for those who play by the rules and take criminal background checks. That is our proposal.

Donald Trump proposes to deport 16 million people, 11 million of whom are here without documents. They want to get rid of birthright citizenship. If you are born here, they want to eliminate that, that is another 4.5 million people. They want to go house to house, school to school, business to business, and kick out 16 million people. I cannot believe that governor pence would sit here and defend his running mate's plan that we should create a deportation force so that they will all be gone.

Gov. Pence: We have a deportation force. It is called immigrations and customs enforcement. For the first time in their history, they endorsed Donald Trump to be the next President of the United States.

Sen. Kaine: You like the 16 million deportation?

Gov. Pence: Senator, that is nonsense. They have a plan for open borders, amnesty.

Sen. Kaine: Our plan is like Ronald Reagan's plan from 1986.

Gov. Pence: We know the routine. It is amnesty. You heard one of the last things he mentioned is border security. That is how Washington always plays it.

Elaine: Senator—

Sen. Kaine: Governor Pence was against it.

Gov. Pence: A nation without borders is not a nation. Donald Trump is committed to restoring the borders of this nation.

Elaine: How would these millions of undocumented immigrants leave? Would they be forcibly removed?

Gov. Pence: It begins with border security. After we secure the border, not only build a wall, but beneath the ground and in the air, we do internal enforcement. The focus has to be on criminal aliens. We just had a conversation about law enforcement, a conversation about the violence that is the setting our cities. The reality is, there is heartbreaking tragedy that has struck American families because people who came into this country illegally are now involved in criminal and reprise and activity, and we do not have the resources or the will to deport them systematically.

Donald Trump said we are going to move those people out. People have overstayed their Visas. We are going to enforce the law of this country and strengthen immigration and customs enforcement with more resources and personnel to be able to do that, and then Donald Trump has made it clear. Once we have done all of those things, then we are going to reform the immigration system that we have in this country.

Sen. Kaine: I have to —

Gov. Pence: That is the order you should do it. Border security, removing criminal aliens, upholding the law, and then, senator, I will work with you. We will work to reform the immigration —

Sen. Kaine: I look forward to working together in whatever capacity as we serve him. I want to make it clear that he is trying to change with Donald Trump has said. Donald Trump said that we are building a wall and we are deporting everybody. He said, "They will all be gone."

This is one of these ones where you can go to the tape on it and see what Donald Trump has said. And to add to it, we are a nation of immigrants. Mike Pence and I are both dissented from immigrant families. Some things, maybe worth a read about the Irish when we came in, but we absorbed, and made our nation stronger. When Donald Trump said Mexicans are rapists and criminals, he said the judge was unqualified to hear a case because his parents were Mexican. I cannot imagine how you could defend that.

Elaine: Gentlemen, I would like to shift to the threat of terrorism. Do you think the will today is a safer and more dangerous place than it was eight years ago? Has the terrorist threat increased or decreased.

Sen. Kaine: It has decreased in some ways because bin Laden is dead, because an Iranian nuclear weapons program hasn't been stopped. There is not 175,000 in a dangerous part of the world, only 15,000, that there are other parts of the world that are challenging.

To beat terrorism, there is only one candidate who can do it, and it is Hillary Clinton. She was a senator from New York on 9/11, at the World Trade Center when they were searching for victims and survivors. That seared onto her the need — she was part of the national security team that wiped out bin Laden. Here is her plan to defeat ISIL. They have to take out their leaders on the battlefield. She will lead the team that will get the head of ISIS. We have got to disrupt the financing networks.

Third, disrupt their ability to recruit on the internet, in their state havens. Fourth, we also have to work with allies to share intelligence. That is the Hillary Clinton plan. Donald Trump cannot start a Twitter war with Miss Universe without shooting himself in the foot. He does not have a plan. He said "I have a secret plan," and then he said, "I know more than all the generals about ISIL," and finally he said "I am going to fire all the generals." He does not have a plan.

He trash talks the military: John McCain is no hero, the generals need to be fired, I know more than them. He wants to end alliances: NATO is obsolete and third, he loves dictators. He has a personal Mount Rushmore of Vladimir Putin, Kim Jong-un, and Saddam Hussein. He believes, Donald Trump believes that the world will be safer if more nations have nuclear weapons. He said Saudi Arabia should get them, Japan should get them, and corporate jet should get them. When he was confronted with this, and told — and Korea should get them.

When he was confronted with this, he said "Go ahead, folks, enjoy yourselves." I would like Governor Pence atomic what is so enjoyable work comical about nuclear war.

Gov. Pence: That had a lot of creative lines in it.

Sen. Kaine: See if you can defend any of it?

Gov. Pence: I can make it clear to the American people, after traveling millions of miles as our secretary of state after being the architect of the foreign policy of this administration, America is less safe today that it was the day that Barack Obama became President of the United States. It is absolutely inarguable. He weakened America's place in the world. It is a lack of leadership. I will give you that. I was in Washington, D.C., on 9/11. I saw the clouds of smoke rise from the Pentagon.

Sen. Kaine: I was in Virginia.

Gov. Pence: I know you were. We lived through that day as a nation. It was heartbreaking. I want to give this president, for bringing Osama bin Laden to justice, but the truth is, he led Al Qaeda. The primary threat today is ISIS. Because Hillary Clinton failed to renegotiate a forces agreement that would have allowed some American combat troops to remain in Iraq and secure the hard-fought gains that the American soldier has won, ISIS was able to be literally conjured up out of the desert and it has overrun vast areas. My heart breaks for the likes of Corporal Lebowski. He fought hard, through some of the most difficult days of Operation Iraqi Freedom, and paid the ultimate sacrifice to secure the nation. That nation was secured in 2009.

Because Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama failed to provide a status of forces agreement and leave sufficient forces, we are back at war. We are back at war in Iraq and — I tell her we're never going to forget her son.The sacrifices the American soldier made squandered in Iraq because this administration created a vacuum in which ISIS was able to grow. The deal that Clinton initiated, $150 billion --

Sen. Kaine: Without firing a shot.

Gov. Pence: It did not stop the —

Sen. Kaine: Yes, it did.

Gov. Pence: It guaranteed that someday, Iran would become a power.

Elaine: Mr. Trump has proposed extreme vetting, but that does not address many of the recent terrorist attacks in the united States such as the Orlando night club massacre. Those were homegrown. What specific tools would you use to prevent those kinds of attacks?

Gov. Pence: I think it is a great question, Elaine. It really does begin with us reforming our immigration system and putting the interest, particularly in the safety and security of the American people, first. Donald Trump wants extreme vetting for people coming in. Donald Trump and I are committed to suspending the Syrian refugee program and programs in immigration around the world that have been compromised by terrorism. Hillary Clinton wants to increase it.

Sen. Kaine: As opposed to violating the constitution by blocking people from coming in based on their nationality, we have different views on refugee issues and immigration. Hillary and I want to do enforcement based on "Our people dangerous?" These guys say "All Mexicans are bad." With regard to refugees, we want to keep people out of they are dangerous. Donald Trump said "Keep them out if they are Muslim." An appellate court with three public and judges struck down a pence plan and said it was this majority. It was discriminatory.

Gov. Pence: There is not evidence that ISIS had infiltrated the United States. Germany just arrested three Syrian refugees.

Sen. Kaine: They told you there is a right way and a wrong way to do it.

Gov. Pence: If you're going to be critical of me, that is fair game. After two Syrian refugees were involved in the attack in Paris that is called "Paris' 9/11," you bet I suspended that program. I stand by that decision. If I am vice president, we're going to put the safety of the American people first.

Sen. Kaine: Hillary and I will do immigration enforcement and vet refugees based on whether they are dangerous or not, not discriminating based on which country you are from.

Gov. Pence: The director of the FBI said we cannot know for certain who these people coming are.

Sen. Kaine: If we do not know, we do not let them in.

Gov. Pence: If the FBI and Homeland Security said we cannot know for certain, you have got to err on the side of the safety of the American people.

Gov. Pence: If the FBI and Homeland Security said we cannot know for certain, you have got to err on the side of the safety of the American people.

Sen. Kaine: By trashing all Muslims?

Elaine: We have got to talk about the intelligence surge. What would that look like and how would that help identify terrorists with no operational connection to a foreign terrorist organization?

Sen. Kaine: It is expanding our intelligence positives by hiring professionals, but also, we have got some of the best intel and cyber employees. It involves increasing our own force, but striking great partnerships with some of our cyber and Intel experts in the private sector so that we can be consistent with constitutional principles, gather more intelligence. It means making stronger alliances. You share intelligence back and forth with allies, and that is how you find out who may be trying to recruit, who may be trying to come from one country to the next.

Alliances are critical. That is why Donald Trump's claim that NATO is obsolete — look, if you push aside your alliances, who are you going to share intelligence with? Hillary Clinton knows how to build alliances. That is what an intelligence surge means, better skill and prosody, but a better alliance.

Elaine: I would like to talk about Syria.

Gov. Pence: I would like to talk about the issue.

Elaine: 30 seconds.

Gov. Pence: Donald Trump just spoke about the issue this week. We have got to bring together the best resources in this country to understand that cyber warfare is the new warfare of the asymmetrical enemies we face in this country, and I look forward if I am privileged to be in this role of working with you in the senate, to make sure we resource that effort.

We have an intelligence surge. I will also tell you that it's important in this moment to remember that Hillary Clinton had a private server in her home that had classified information on it about drone strikes, e-mails from the president of the United States of America were on there, her private server was subject to being hacked by foreign —

Elaine: I would like to ask you about Syria. You have had a minute.

Sen. Kaine: The investigation concluded that not one reasonable prosecutor would take any additional steps. You do not get to decide that the rights and wrongs of this. We have a justice system that does that. A Republican FBI director director did an investigation and concluded --

Elaine: We are moving on now. 100,000 children — governor.

Gov. Pence: That is absolutely false.

Sen. Kaine: They did an investigation. They concluded there was no reasonable prosecutor who would take it further.

Elaine: Senator Kaine, Governor Pence, please. I want to turn now to Syria. One hundred-thousand children are under siege in Aleppo, Syria. Bonds, cluster munitions, incendiary weapons are being dropped on them by Russian and Syrian military's. Does the US have a responsibility to protect civilians and prevent mass casualties on this scale? Governor Pence.

Gov. Pence: The United States of America needs to begin to exercise strong leadership to protect the vulnerable citizens in over 100,000 children in Aleppo. Hillary Clinton's top priority when she became secretary of state was the Russian reset. After the Russian reset, the Russians invaded Ukraine and took over Crimea. The small and bullying the leader of Russia is now dictating terms to the United States to the point where all the United States of America, the greatest nation on Earth, just withdraws from talk about a cease-fire while that a mere Putin puts a missile defense in Syria while he marshaled the forces and begins — look, we have got to lean into this with strong, broad-shouldered American leadership that begins by rebuilding our military.

The Russians and Chinese have been making enormous investments in the military. We have the smallest maybe since 1916. We have the lowest number of troops since the second world War. We have got to work with the congress and Donald Trump to rebuild our military and project American strength in the world. About Aleppo and Syria, I truly do believe that what America ought to do is immediately establish Safe Zones so that families with children can move out of those areas, work with our Arab partners real-time, right now to make that happen. The provocations by Russia need to be met by American strength. If Russia continues to be involved in this barbaric attack on civilians in Aleppo, the US needs to be prepared to strike military targets of the Assad regime, to prevent them from this humanitarian crisis taking place in Aleppo.

There is a broad range of other things we ought to do as well. We should deploy a missile defense shield to the Czech Republic and Poland, which had Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama pulled back on. We have to have American strength on the world stage. When Donald Trump becomes president, the Russians and other countries in the world will know they are dealing with a strong American president.

Elaine: Senator?

Sen. Kaine: Consistent with the UN Security Council resolution passed would be a good idea. Hillary Clinton has the way to stand up to Russia. Donald Trump again and again has praised Vladimir Putin.

It is clear she has business dealings with Russia and is very connected to Putin. The trump campaign management team had to be fired a month or so ago because of those shadowy connections.

Governor pence made the odd claim, he said, and arguably, Vladimir Putin is a better leader than president Obama. Vladimir Putin has run his economy into the ground and he persecutors LGBT folks. If you don't of the difference between dictatorship and leadership, then you got to go back to a fifth grade civics class. That offends me.

Gov. Pence: That offended me.

Sen. Kaine: Governor Pence just said Donald Trump will rebuild the military. No he won't. Donald Trump is avoiding paying taxes. The "New York Times" story suggested he did not pay taxes for 18 years, starting in 1995. Those years included the year of 9/11.

On 9/11, Hillary Clinton's and Donald Trump's hometown was attacked. Young men and women signed up to fight terrorism. Hillary Clinton went to Washington to get funds to rebuild her city and protect first responders, but Donald Trump was fighting a different fight, a fight to avoid paying taxes so he would not support the fight against terror, he would not support troops. This is important, Elaine.

When a guy running for president will not support the troops, not support veterans, not support teachers, that is really important. And I said about Aleppo, we do agree to a humanitarian zone in northern Syria.

Elaine: Governor Pence, you had mentioned a no fly zone. Specifically, how would you keep this safe zone safe?

Gov. Pence: First of all, Donald Trump supports troops and our veterans.

Sen. Kaine: He will not pay taxes.

Elaine: Gentlemen —

Sen. Kaine: This is about our troops.

Gov. Pence: I understand why you want to change the subject and let me be clear on this Russians thing. What we are dealing with is — there is an old proverb that says the Russian bear never dies, but hibernates. This foreign policy from Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama has awakened a Russian aggression that first appeared a few years ago with their move into Georgia and crimea and into the wider Middle East. All we do now is full of our arms and say, "We are not having talks anymore." We need to marshal the resources of our allies in the region and end the immediate — we need to act and act now to get people out of harm's way.

Elaine: Exactly how would those safe zones work?

Gov. Pence: The safe zones would have to be, as the senator said, there is a framework that has been recognized by the international community, but the United States needs to be prepared to work with others in the region to create a route for safe passage, and to protect people in those areas, including with a no-fly zone. I served on the foreign affairs committee for a decade. To see the weak and feckless leadership that Hillary Clinton was the architect of.

Sen. Kaine: Let me come back to talk about — he does not want to acknowledge that we stopped the Iranian nuclear weapons program. He does not want to acknowledge that Taylor was part of the team that got Osama bin Laden.

Big knowledge that Hillary was part of the team that got Osama bin Laden. Ronald Reagan said something interesting about proliferation in the 1980's. He said the problem with nuclear proliferation is some maniac could trigger a catastrophic event and I think that is who Governor Pence's running mate is.

Gov. Pence: Senator, that was even beneath you and Hillary Clinton. That was pretty low. Ronald Reagan also said nuclear wars should never be fought because it could never be won, and the United States of America needs to make advancements in modernizing. But let me go back to this Iran thing. You keep saying that Hillary Clinton started the deal with the Iranians, prevented them from getting a nuclear weapon. That is not what Israel thinks.

Sen. Kaine: You can go check.

Gov. Pence: I know you boycotted Prime Minister Netanyahu's speech. When I was in congress, I fought hard on a bipartisan basis with Republican and Democrat members to move forward the topic sanctions literally in the history of the United States.

Sen. Kaine: And Hillary Clinton used them.

Gov. Pence: Other goal was always that we would only lift the sanctions if Iran terminally renounced their nuclear ambitions. They have not done so. And when the deal's period runs out, there is no limitation on weapons. $1.7 billion was used in a ransom payment.

Sen. Kaine: Six times tonight I have said to Governor Pence, I cannot defend how you would defend your running mate's position. And in all six cases, he has refused to defend. And yet, he is asking everybody to vote for somebody he cannot defend.

Elaine: Senator. I will give you an opportunity to do that.

Sen. Kaine: More nations should get nuclear weapons, try to defend that.

Gov. Pence: He never said that.

Elaine: Gentlemen, Russia. Russian President Vladimir Putin invaded Ukraine and Crimea and provided crucial military support to the Assad regime. Senator Kaine?

Sen. Kaine: Let's start with not praising Vladimir Putin as a great leader. Donald Trump and Mike Pence has said he is a great leader. He has business dealings with Russia that he refuses to disclose. Hillary Clinton has gone toe to toe with Russia. She did so as secretary of state with the new start agreement to reduce Russia's nuclear stockpile.

She went toe-to-toe with Russia and launched protests when they went into Georgia. And we have done the same thing with Ukraine, but we put punishing economic sanctions on Russia that we need to continue. Donald Trump, on the other hand, did not know Russia had invaded Crimea. He was on a television show a couple months back and said, "I guarantee you this, Russia is not going into the Ukraine." He had to be reminded that they had gone into Crimea a few years before. Hillary Clinton has gone toe-to-toe with Russia and got them engaged in a meaningful way to cap Iran's nuclear weapons program and yet, she stood up to them on issues such as Syria and the invasion of Georgia. You have got to have the ability to do that and Hillary does.

On the other hand, in Donald Trump you have somebody who praises Vladimir Putin all the time. America should really wonder about Donald Trump, who has ties to Vladimir Putin, who had to be fired for that reason. When Donald Trump sits down with Vladimir Putin, is it going to be America's bottom line or Donald Trump's bottom line with his business dealings. This could be solved if Donald Trump was willing to release his tax returns. And I know he is laughing at this.

Gov. Pence: What has that got to do with Russia? Sen. Kaine: Every president since Nixon has done it.

Elaine: Senator, your time is up. Governor.

Gov. Pence: Well, thanks. I'm just trying to keep up with the insult driven campaign on the other side.

Sen. Kaine: I am just saying facts about your running mate.

Gov. Pence: Don't put words in my mouth. Most of what you said is completely false and the American people know that.

Gov. Pence: This is the alternative universe of Washington DC, versus reality. Hillary Clinton — her number one priority was a reset of Russia. That resulted in the infiltration of Ukraine. They moved all the way into Crimea and took over the Crimean peninsula. Donald Trump was basically said, it is not going to happen again. The truth of the matter is, what you have in the rise of aggressive Russia, which has increased its influence in Iran, it is not because of this deal, is on a pathway in the feature to obtain a nuclear — the leading state sponsor of terror in the world in Iran now has a closer working relationship with Russia because of Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama's foreign policy and $150 billion and sanctions being lifted and then of course, Syria. It is extraordinary. Syria is imploding.

You just asked about the disaster in Aleppo. ISIS is headquartered from raqqa. From there, they have overwhelmed vast areas. Yet, senator Kaine still sits here and says that the foreign policy of Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama somehow made the world more secure. It really is astonishing. The day Iran released four Americans we delivered $400 million in cash as a ransom payment for Americans held in Tehran.

Elaine: "Putin has no respect for Hillary Clinton and no respect for Obama." Why do you think he will respect a Trump-Pence administration? Why the you think he will respect a trump-pence administration?

Gov. Pence: Strength. We are going to rebuild our military. This whole Putin thing, look, America is stronger than Russia. Our economy is 16 times larger than the Russian economy. Our political system is superior to the corrupt capital system in Russia it every way.

When Donald Trump and I observed in Syria and Iran and Ukraine that the bullying leader of Russia has been stronger on the world stage than this administration is stating facts. That is not an endorsement of Putin.

Sen. Kaine: This is one where we can go to the table on. Governor pence said, and arguably, Vladimir Putin is a better leader than president Obama.

Gov. Pence: That is absolutely inaccurate. He has been stronger on the world stage.

Elaine: No, you said leader. And I will say this, governor. If you mistake leadership for dictatorship and can't tell a difference —

Gov. Pence: This is the grade school thing again.

Sen. Kaine: If you can't tell the difference, you should not be commander in chief. And Donald Trump's son says they have all these business dealings with Russia. America needs to worry about whether Donald Trump will be worrying about his own bottom line.

Elaine: What went on with the Russian reset?

Sen. Kaine: Vladimir Putin is a dictator. He is not a leader.

Anyone who thinks otherwise does not know Russian history and they doesn't know Vladimir Putin. Hillary Clinton knows exactly who this guy is. John McCain, I look at that guy and I see KGB. So, how do you deal with him? We do have to deal with Russia in many different ways. There are areas where we can cooperate.

It was Hillary Clinton who worked with Russia on the treaty to reduce their nuclear weapons stockpile. It was Hillary Clinton who worked with Russia to get them engaged in a community of nations to stop the Iranian nuclear weapons program without firing a shot. She is not going around praising Vladimir Putin as a great guy, but she knows how to sit down at a table and negotiate tough deals. This is a very challenging part of the world and we should have a commander in chief that is prepared, rather than somebody who goes around praising Vladimir Putin.

Elaine: I would like to ask about North Korea and the threat of nuclear weapons. North Korea just conducted its fifth and most powerful nuclear weapon test. How would you stop them from developing a nuclear weapon powerful enough from reaching the United States?

Gov. Pence: We need to modernize our nuclear forces and we need an effective American diplomacy that will marshal the resources of nations in the Asian-Pacific rim to put pressure on north Korea, to abandon the nuclear ambitions. It has to remain the policy of the notice states of America, the demilitarization of the Korean peninsula.

When Donald Trump's president, we are not going to have the kind of posture in the world that has Russia invading Crimea and Ukraine, that has the Chinese building new islands in the South China Sea, that has literally the world, including North Korea, flouting American power. We will go back to the days of peace through strength. But I have to tell you, all of this talk about tax returns, and I get it, you want to keep bringing it up, but, Hillary Clinton and her husband set up a private foundation called the Clinton Foundation.

While she was secretary of state, the foundation accepted tens of millions of dollars from foreign governments and foreign donors now, you will need to know out there, this is basic stuff. For a donors and certainly, foreign governments cannot participate in the American political process. They cannot make financial contributions, but the Clintons figure out a way to create a foundation where foreign governments and for donors can donate millions of dollars.

And then we found, thanks to the good work of the Associated Press, that more than half of her private meetings when she was secretary of state were given to major donors of the Clinton Foundation. You talk about all these baseless rumors about Russia and the half rest, Hillary Clinton, you asked the trustworthy question at the very beginning.

Elaine: Senator —

Gov. Pence: They are looking at the pay to play politics she operated within the Clinton Foundation. They are saying, enough is enough.

Elaine: Senator Kaine.

Sen. Kaine: I want to talk about the Foundation and then North Korea. I am glad to talk about the foundation. It is one of the highest rated charities in the world. It provides AIDS drugs to about 11.5 million people. It helps America deal with opioid overdoses and it gets higher rankings for its charity than the American Red Cross does. It does a lot of good work. Hillary Clinton as secretary of state took no action to benefit the Foundation. The State Department did an investigation and concluded that everything Hillary Clinton did as Secretary of State was in the interest of the United States.

So, the foundation does good work and Hillary Clinton as secretary of state acted in the interest of the United States. Now, let's compare that with the Trump Organization. The conflict of interest could only be known if Donald Trump would release his tax returns and he has refused to do it. His son has said the organization has a lot of business dealings in Russia. Remember, the Trump Organization is not a nonprofit.

It is putting money into his pocket and the pockets of his children, where the Clinton Foundation is a nonprofit and no Clinton [family member] draws any salary. In addition, Donald Trump has a foundation that was just fined for illegally contributing foundation dollars to a political campaign. They made an illegal contribution and tried to hide it. The person they donated it to was the person whose office was donating to Trump University. Clinton is doing work in the American interest.

Elaine: Governor, I will give you 30 seconds to respond because I know you want to, but I will remind you both, this is about North Korea. [Laughter]

Gov. Pence: Thank you. The Trump Foundation is a private family foundation and they give virtually every cent to charitable causes.

Sen. Kaine: A $20,000 portrait of Donald Trump?

Gov. Pence: It has been a platform for the Clintons to travel the world. But honestly, senator, we would know a lot more about it if Hillary Clinton would turn over that 33,000 e-mails.

Elaine: Senator Kaine. Senator Kaine, if you had intelligence that North Korea was about to launch a nuclear armed missile capable of reaching the United States, would you take preemptive action?

Sen. Kaine: A president should take action to defend the united States against imminent threats. Now, you would have to determine what your intelligence was, how certain you were about that intelligence, but you would have to take question. You asked the question of how we deal with North Korea. On the foreign relations committee we just did an extensive sanctions package against North Korea and interestingly enough, the UN did virtually the same package. Often China will use their veto on the security council for that. They are starting to get worried about North Korea as well. So, they supported be sanctions passage, even when many of the sanctions are against Chinese financial institutions.

So, we are working together with China and we need to. It is competitive and also challenging and we have to be able to cooperate against north Korea. Hillary understands that. She went famously to China and stood up at a human rights meeting and said, against north Korea. "Women's rights are human rights." She worked on many important diplomatic deals with China and that is what it will take. The thing I would worry about a little bit is Donald Trump owes about $650 million to banks, including the Bank of China. I am not sure he could stand up so tough to the people who have loaned him money.

Elaine: I would like to turn to our next segment and focus on a social issues. You have both been open about the role that states have played in your lives.

Can you express in detail a time that you have struggled to balance your personal faith and the public policy decision. Senator Kaine.

Sen. Kaine: That is an easy one for me. I grew up with a great Irish Catholic council. I was educated by Jesuits. I worked with Jesuit missionaries in Honduras now nearly 35 years ago and they were the heroes of my life. I tried it to practice my religion in a very devout way. But I don't believe in this nation, a First Amendment nation, where we don't raise any religion over the other, that the doctrines of any one religion should be mandated for everyone.

Having a struggle in my faith life was that the Catholic Church is against the death penalty and so am I. But I was the governor of the state, and the state says there was a death penalty. So, I had to grapple with that when I was running for governor and I was attacked pretty strongly because of my position. But, I looked the voters of Virginia in the eye, and said, I am not going to change my religious practice to get one vote, but I will uphold the law.

And I was elected and I did. It was very difficult to allow executions to go forth, but in certain situations where I did not believe there was a case for clemency, I told Virginia voters I would uphold the law and I did. It is difficult for those of us who have these faith lives, we don't feel we can just substitute our views.

Elaine: Governor Pence.

Gov. Pence: Well, it is a wonderful question in my Christian faith is at the very heart of who I am. I was also raised in a wonderful family of faith. It was church on Sunday morning and grace before dinner. But my Christian faith became real for me when I made a personal decision for Christ when I was a freshman in college. I have tried to live that out, however imperfectly, every day of my life since. With my wife by my side we followed a calling into public service, where we tried to keep the faith with our values that we cherish.

And, which regard to when I struggled, I appreciate and I have a great deal of respect for Senator Kaine's sincere faith. That is shared. But for me, I would tell you for the sanctity of life proceeds out of that ancient principle of God. I tried to stand for the ancient principle of the sanctity of life. I am also very pleased that Indiana became the most-adoption state. But what I can’t understand is Hillary Clinton — how she can support a process like partial-birth abortion.

It was largely a less-than-exciting debate between Pence and Kaine, but they each have very different policy stances, and in this divisive election, every vote counts.